NetNews Offline 2/NetNews Offline Volume 2.iso/news/comp/sys/amiga/misc-part1/2671

Internet Message Format | 1996-08-05 | 16.6 KB

Path: zetnet.co.uk!demon!hchworth.demon.co.uk
From: Paul Chan <paul>
Newsgroups: comp.sys.amiga.misc
Subject: Re: The March Amiga?
Date: Tue, 23 Jan 1996 09:44:27 GMT
Message-ID: <[e-mail]>
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[e-mail] (Gary Alan Peake) wrote:

Hello Gary, nice to hear from you again ;)

[many snips]


>>GP> Why the 'Surfer Package' (that took extra money and time)?
>>
>>Well, to make money, for one thing.  Only Oracle seems to be entering
>>that type of market right now.  The problem is that by providing a
>>full-fledged 1200 with the Net suite, the price is significantly higher
>>than Oracle's product.  And that Net suite had better be good, or the
>>Surfer package (what an awful name!) will fail.
>
>So even the good things they do are criticized? 'What an awful name'? Please
>... let's hear YOUR name for the package?

Actually, Net Surfer isn`t that bad a name. The packaging had better match the
name though, nice neon dayglow colours... ;)

The most important factor in this equation is going to be price, not
necessarily name. 299 UK pounds and you`ll have a lot of people seriously
thinking about the Net Surfer, much more, and you`ll be in a situation similar
to AT UK at the moment (see below for more details).


>>They may have some sort of plan, but I'm still not sure what it is, AT
>>isn't volunteering information, and I have reservations about the parts
>>we do know about.  And I'm not alone, Gary.  You can tell just from the
>>posts here.
>
>Oh? How many of the twelve people here do NOT think Amiga Technologies has a
>plan? How many of the twelve DO think Amiga Technologies has a plan? (HINT:
>See Amiga Technologies speeches and press releases for plans).

That coded marketing spiel? It`s good for some discussion, but I don`t get
serious until I see it on the shelf...

>
>>There are questions that have to be asked when it comes to this
>>subject.  We as Amiga users have incredible power over the decisions
>>made at AT due to the fact that we're the ones buying this system.
>
>Think about the absurdity of this statement! Because we 'bought' the system
>in the past, Amiga Technologies is now 'obligated' to listen to us?
>By this logic GM, Ford, & Chrysler should be supplying their buyers with
>some way to pre-accept or pre-reject next year's models? Sure all companies
>live or die by public acceptance, but very few (if any) design a product
>AFTER consulting past buyers.

AHA! They risk alienating previous buyers by tacking off in a different
direction. In terms of your example about cars. In Europe, the [GM] Vauxhall
Vectra (Will be called Saturn in the US, I think) is a replacement for the
ageing Cavalier model. It`s aimed at the company car buyer and while Vauxhall
overhauled the entire engineering design, they kept the exterior and interior
similar for the conservative company market. This was done in order to retain
their custom when the time came for an upgrade. Sound familiar?

In other words, Vauxhall was aiming the car at company car buyers, and who
better to target first than previous Vauxhall owners who would have very much
of an impact on sales...

OK, so the design of the exterior and some of the interior almost apes the
Cavlier that it was slated to replace, but the rest of the car has been
redesigned and made much better than the stodgy Cavalier.

Dr Kittel should be able to recognise this example. OK Doc?

>
>>GP> For this year, Amiga Technologies should be chasing
>>GP> the new 'entry level' people with the 1200 Surfer Package. These entry
>>GP> level users now will be what adds to the current user base when the PPC's
>>GP> come out. THAT will make this a viable solution again.
>>
>>But can AT cut through the M$ brainwash factory that "more power =
>>better"?  Or will the public see the 1200 package (I refuse to call it
>>"Surfer") as a toy?
>
>Refuse to use it's name, that's your perogative, but it's STILL the name.
>How about if we call you Ralph? And how many 'toys' (as you like to put it)
>can access the nets 'out of the box'? I happen to think it's a fabulous
>idea. We'll see soon enough if I'm right or wrong.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the AT UK debacle, where, if he has read
any news reports, AT has fired all but two of the staff and moved them to Escom
HQ in the UK. This is due in no small part to the lack of advertising pre-Xmas
whic resulted in "poor sales". I would hazard a guess that most of the Amiga
buyers who bought a Magic pack Amiga were existing Amiga owners looking to
upgrade, not the fabled "new" buyer. IMHO most of us stayed well clear because,
in many people`s opinions (including the retailers) the AT A1200 was
overpriced.

You can call the Surfer whatever the hell you like. If it does`t get marketing
an doesn`t come out at an almost consumer price it`ll never take off. IMHO, AT
would be better served setting up a service provider subsidiary exclusively for
Amigas.

Look around today, there are very few Service Providers who specifically cater
for Amigas (ie have tech staff on hand in case of problems). AT could
essentially cut the price of the Surfer pack to less than 299 UK pounds (or
even 199 UK pounds?) In a "console-style" software deal that gives people
access to the only Amiga-dedicated service provider in the World (ie AT
Internet). That way, people pay less for the hardware, and AT makes profits out
of people subscribing to AT Internet. Offer 3 months free access to AT Internet
and prices comparable to Demon, but with better service (that shouldn`t be hard
;) - Get some PoPs across Europe and USA via Unipalm Pipex and Bob is indeed
your venerable father`s brother...

>
>> >I think that these questions are valid, but corporations, like any other
>> >physical entity, tend to follow the path of least resistance:
>
>No, corporations tend to try to do what makes them money. That's what they
>do ... make money.

See money making console style attempt to dominate the low end home internet
machine world market above.

[silly bit snipped]

>>
>>I didn't make a point.  I asked a question about current Amiga owners,
>>since they're the only ones who seem to know about the 1200s/4000Ts.
>
>No 'new' buyers have bought a 1200 or 4000? That's strange! And if there are
>'some' new buyers, where did they hear about the Amiga? You have apparently
>totally missed what Amiga Technologies is doing ... filling up pent-up
>demand AND trying to attract NEW buyers with the Magic & Surfer packages.

OK, maybe some have bought the Magic Pack in the UK, but the majority are
people who knew they wanted an A1200 (not many these days), rather than being
attracted by non-existant advertising. Pent-up demand that has seen people
flocking to the shops and leaving sereval thousand pent-up A1200 Magic Packs in
the Escom stores
in their droves. The AT UK Xmas "campaign" was a bad mistake. They cocked up
on:

1) Price. Too expensive. People don`t care what hoops you had to jump through
to get it on the street, they won`t pay *more* for a machine which "died" 1
year ago.

2) Bundle. The games were pathetic.

3) Hardware. The disk drive fiasco wasn`t good. For the few Amigans who
actually thought about getting an A1200, the disk drive problem scared them
off.

4) What`s next? AT now have to consider how their fabled A1200Plus will fit
into the market place. The wrong spec, price, or bundle could prove costly.
IMHO, they have to reduce the price of the A1200 drastically. I could accept a
Surfer pack at 399 (including the hard drive and modem etc.)  Clear out the old
A1200 by flogging it off for 299HD or 199 no HD.

[snippety]

>Wrong rhetorical answer! It is death to NOT do R&D and apparently Amiga
>Technologies is well aware of this.

It`s a faster death to foul up the A1200 pricing, etc. see above.
AT still have to backpedal and reduce the price of the A1200 if they are
sensible.

[snip]

>>So a corporation is going to keep a money-losing subsidiary afloat in
>>order to lose more money?  I hope the German tax code is as lax about
>>businesses as the US's is.  That's the only reason I'd do something
>>like that.
>
>Who has said that Amiga Technologies is losing money? I haven't heard or
>read that anywhere. Facts speak volumes! I do believe that Amiga
>Technologies is lessening the 'load' on Escom's finances at the moment!

Hmm, how many units sold? What were AT`s expectations?? Certainly much higher
than actual sales. Why else would they all but ditch the AT UK operational
staff? They should have ditched a few of the less useful Escom Sales staff and
replaced them with more Amiga savvy folks. Even AT must realise here that job
motivation would be higher than your average spotty ex-Rumbelows salesman if
they hired a bunch of Amiga experienced sales people.

Heck, I would have applied for a job in my local Escom if they advertised - it
was right after I graduated that the first Escom store opened in my local town!

>
>>GP> >I hope that none of these are true, and that AT does have the best in
>>GP> >mind for the Amiga, but illustrated like that, it is a no-win
>>GP> >situation.  The question has to be put out, and I hope that
>>GP> >Kittel/Bourdin can refute this line of argument.
>
>No need for them to. From the CEO of Escom on down, they have ALL refuted
>the questions BEFORE you thought to ask them. How many times have they ALL
>said that Escom/Amiga Technologies is in 'for the long run'?

Of course they`ll refute it! It`s the official party line. Don`t you see if
they start bad mouthing the Amiga they`ll destroy every confidence we ever had
in them. Of course, I could be wrong ;)

>
>>Notice you didn't respond to this section, Gary...
>
>I didn't see any reason to. Too far fetched.

Yeah, right ;)


>>It's not "excellent", dammit!  It's a deficient computer system from an
>>engineering standpoint.  It's a very draconian proposition.  It's feast
>>or famine with a 1200; either a user gets sick of its low capabilities
>>and lack of ease in upgrading and ditches Amiga, or upgrades.  A great
>>gamble, but one that could pay off.
>
>Read 'in context' PLEASE!!! 'It's an excellent ENTRY LEVEL COMPUTER' and it
>is!! I don't know engineering from mud samples, but I will tell you that
>from a users standpoint, almost everything out right now is draconian and an
>engineering nightmare! Took a mid-level computer smart (professional person
>with a college degree) about 6 hours to finally get NT configured right for
>her 486/66. Care to hear some of her woes with modems in her Packard Bell?
>Horror stories abound on EVERY computer if you are into that. By the same
>token, I hear many stories of how great all the same computers are to other
>people? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but the ugly stick can hit
>anyone without notice!

Hey, never mind about the nitty gritty, most poor folks have bought a PC before
they realise that anything is bad about them. It`s called marketing ;)

OK, fair enough that the Amiga gets the same results for less money, but in
this world, less power really is laughed at. Instead of Amiga can get it done
for less cpu power the advertising cry should be:

 "Amiga gets more done for the same cpu power!"

Ride the wave of the PC power generation, and prove that the Amiga really has
the power to outgun the PC. And emulate them too...

>
>> >The biggest market for the Amiga isn't NA, but NA is still the biggest
>> >market in the world for computers (until the EU becomes a little more
>> >technologically sophisticated and capable in all its member countries;
>> >no insult, Eurofriends, because you have been catching up quickly, but
>> >we in NA are still the biggest).  The PPC Amiga can make a killing
>> >here, but there's a limited time frame.  It has to be done and
>> >introduced prior to the abolition of the P6.  In order to make inroads
>> >into the computer market, AT has to gain the worldwide acceptance of a
>> >DOS or Mac box, and that means NA.  They can't focus simply on Europe,
>> >unless they want to accept second-class citizenship in Cyberworld.
>>
>>GP> Lot's of changes are going on with our brethren overseas and the way telco
>>GP> works, etc. I look for the European market to get much bigger on the
>>GP> Internet. The Surfer package will fit right in with that movement.

BBEEEPPP! No way are AT going to get an Internet package into the mainstream UK
market without:

1.    The right price
2.    A dedicated Amiga service provider who can help you set up.
3.    Good software + hardware.

Otherwise we end up with another CDTV/CD32 debacle. No advertising until it`s
too late, no price cuts to a resonable level until it`s too late, and too late
to compete with the others who catch up a few months later. Can AT start
quickly and keep things going? It mainly depands on the price in the UK.

>>
>>But you didn't answer my point about NA, did you?  That was only the
>>purpose of my statement, after all.  Until telecommunications systems
>>in the EU are fully deregulated and demonopolized, telecom there won't
>>grow as fast as you think.  My proof is Britain; it's virtually the
>>only point I agreed with the Thatcherites.
>
>Point answered then ... it has been said that the PPC will be here around
>CEBit (March 1997). More rumor than fact, I'm sure. But that's what we have
>to go with at the moment. If this isn't soon enough for you, then we are
>defeated! I am patient enough to wait for Amiga Technologies and see what we
>see. In the meantime, my 3000/25 is humming along nicely on 2.1 ... I may in
>fact go to 3.1 any day now. After that I am planning on contacting Softwood
>about a PPC card for my 3000. Then, the next step is the PPC Amiga for me.

Good for you, but selling this plan in the UK will take some serious price
cutting and marketing before the "big-boys" arrive.

>
>If you are looking for a BIG PUSH into North America beginning tomorrow,
>don't hold your breath. Amiga Technologies has said more than once that it
>ain't gonna happen that way. The PPC is their inroad into the North American
>market. THAT competes!!

Not without marketing and a competitive price it doesn`t.

[snips]

>Money is what corporations exist for ... no other reason! Only a fool would
>believe otherwise. This said, there are a lot of Amiga fanatics at Amiga
>Technologies. They feel just as deeply about the Amiga as some of us do.
>Some people do DO things out of altruism. If you fail to believe the last
>statement, get a look at the 'deathbed vigil'. I've never been fortunate
>enough to actually see it, but I have heard that many tears were shed over
>the Amiga by those who put their hearts and souls into it.

They may do, but their Escom masters may not think that way if AT starts to cut
deeply into Escom`s profits.

>
>>GP> Still think the Surfer stuff is going to do great! That in itself is
>>GP> something we've never had.
>>
>>I don't think it's going to do as great as you think it is.  It's going
>>to be a fair-to-middling success at best.  It makes the fact that
>>they'd better not make any false moves with the PPC even more
>>important.
>
>Time will tell ...

The turning point will be AT`s re-arranged price and spec policy. I wait the
announcement of the Surfer pack with baited breath for I can see the future of
the Amiga in 1996 and beyond hinging on the CeBIT.  Not too Mystic Meg for you?
;)

[propaganda cut]

>I am a believer in 'constructive criticism' and want my employees at work to
>use lots of it with me. BUT, there is a point when criticism becomes
>destructive rather than constructive. My definition of 'support' is probably
>much different from yours I would think? Support ... buying of products,
>complimenting the good points, suggesting work arounds for points we
>disagree on in a 'constructive, unobtrusive, non-belligerant way, word of
>mouth advertising, etc.
>
>What I do is this: show my agreement with the good things that Amiga
>Technologies is doing by supporting them here (much to the dislike of
>several), buy Amiga products from 3rd party vendors that are supporting us
>by being here, showing and telling people every chance I get about the
>things my Amiga's have done for years with ease, and using email to show my
>discomfort with things that I don't feel are productive for me and the
>people I know that use an Amiga, advertising with my taglines with every
>message I post here and on Fidonet, helping people that I am qualified to
>help get around problems that someone helped me with in the past.
>

Face it, you`re just a Yes man, and I don`t mean you`re a member of a 70`s
supergroup, even if you liked Rick Wakeman in any way ;)

[SNIP]

See you later...